Building The Noise with Martin Lockett: EPISODE 019

SPEAKER_02 0:00

When I made this vow to carry on this work and honoring my victims. So about six months ago, one of the daughters of one of the women who passed away found me on Instagram. And I get this DM and she says, Hi Martin. Because every time I'm out speaking in high schools and colleges and things like that, I take pictures and reels and things like that. So I'm just my platform is about my mission. And she said, I just want to thank you for the work that you're doing. She said, my mom was an incredible woman. I would love to talk to you more about more about her to you someday if you're interested. But um, but she would be proud of the work that you're doing today. So keep on doing what you're doing, and um, and thank you for making good on what you said you were going to do. So I mean, I've gotten many compliments over the years, man, and but there is none that that would supersede that.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Welcome to the Building the Noise Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Building the Noise Podcast. My name is Matt Teresco, and joining me today is Martin Lockett. Martin is the director of cultural engagement and mental health at Lines for Life in Portland, Oregon. His work is rooted in a story few people could carry with as much honesty. More than 17 years ago, Martin was the DUI driver in a crash that took two innocent lives. During incarceration, he earned a master's degree in psychology, became a certified substance abuse counselor, published two books, and recorded his story for DUI victim impact panels across the country. Today, Martin uses that experience to help people facing addiction, mental health challenges, and the hard work of rebuilding a life after harm. His story is about accountability, transformation, and what it turns what it means to turn pain into service. Martin, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_02 1:51

Thank you so much for having me, Matt. Looking forward to um diving right in and inviting the folks why I do what I do.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

I mean, Martin, you you know, we got a bit of why you do what you do from your story, but uh, you know, I I think for for some it might be difficult to even wrap their head around you jumping back into that world that you were able to leave behind. But to you, it wasn't about leaving it behind. So why do you do what you do?

SPEAKER_02 2:19

Yeah, it definitely wasn't about leaving it behind. It was more about carrying something forward. And so I'll kind of you know get to the origin of where this all started for me and and why it's it's uh you know critically important um that I do this work today. So um I grew up in Portland, Oregon, uh in the 80s, and I don't know if anybody's familiar with with Portland, Oregon today. You hear about the mantras about you know, keep Portland weird, and we have you know naked bike rides and you know, all this sort of stuff. But let me just say it was entirely different back then. Um it was uh you know, during the the height of the crack epidemic, it was gangs coming up from California fighting for this new territory to sell drugs, drive-by shootings were rampant, open prostitution was a thing. Um it was essentially a war zone. And so that was, you know, outside of my doorstep, that's what you know we lived, we lived with. But I was also insulated with two, um, you know, by two loving parents, and I have a twin brother and two older sisters and who are very close-knit family. My dad was very active, you know, with my brother and I in sports and you know, uh Cub Scouts and things like that. And so it was it was a fairly normal childhood, I would say, um, you know, despite the chaos that that that you know permeated our our uh neighborhood. But things kind of changed for me when I got to high school, as it does for many kids, you know, um, you know, your peer group takes a more prominent role, you're looking for more independence from your parents, and so I was a terribly shy kid. And this kind of left me at the mercy of other kids who were maybe not doing the you know the best things because I just wanted to be accepted. I wanted to belong. I didn't want to be a loner. And so I kind of gravitated to kids who had lived in my neighborhood. I never met these kids, and um, you know, I started, like a lot of kids do, experimenting with smoking cigarettes and um, you know, smoking weed and and and alcohol. And I'll say that alcohol for me, it did something for me, you know, being terribly shy and insecure and things like that. And it it instantly allowed me to just come out of my shell, open up, talk to people more freely and with ease, especially when it came to girls, you know, which I was terribly afraid of at that point in my life.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

With two older sisters, no way.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

Yeah, yeah, no, seriously, man. Um it was it was quite the thing to navigate. And so alcohol just uh enabled me to be somebody that I wasn't able to be otherwise. And so for a couple years, that was my infatuation with alcohol, just sort of the social lubricant and things like that. But around age 16, I started to grapple with some really, you know, deep-seated um uh struggles, mental health challenges, uh depression, um, extremely poor uh self-esteem and insecurities, and uh an identity crisis that I didn't know how to navigate. And this led to me relying on alcohol as a way to cope, as a lot of people do who don't have great coping mechanisms. My family support, my my parental support at that point had kind of diminished because at that point my mom's illnesses had had you know gotten worse. She had been sick her whole life, so she couldn't work. My dad took care of the family. He was working swing shift at Freightliner as a as a diesel mechanic, so he's gone all day. Yeah. And my brother and I are just kind of left to you know do whatever we wanted to do. And so um that's that's where the alcohol really, really took hold of my life. And um I'll fast forward, I didn't graduate high school. And uh, you know, I had a son when I was 17. He passed away when I was 18, just three three weeks before his first birthday. Um, so dealing with grief and just uh, you know, no sense of self, wandering through this world aimlessly, feeling like there was a very short ceiling on my life and my prospects. And alcohol was the only way I knew how to manage or to suppress these feelings. You're not really managing, you're just you know, uh more or less delaying the torment. Yeah. And so this culminated, Matt, with um with a fatal, uh double fatal DUI car crash that happened on New Year's Eve of 2003. After drinking all day and partying all night at uh 1.13 a.m., uh my brother and I, my brother was in the passenger seat. I had sped through a red light and crashed into a car, uh, instantly killed two people and severely injured a third person in that crash. And I'm 24 years old. I was keenly aware of the really strict sentencing laws in Oregon around DUI manslaughter because these crimes are considered they're they're as far as the the severity of the crime and the way in which they view it as a person-to-person violent crime is no different than armed robbery or assault or even rape, as far as as far as the the sentencing guidelines are concerned. It is a violent person-to-person crime. So I knew that I was likely on my way to prison for anywhere between 15 and 20 years. Um, even with a plea bargain, I had a private attorney, it didn't matter. Um, I was guilty, right? I mean, there was nothing that's gonna save me. And so three days after this happened, right, I'm in the county jail. I'm still trying to wrap my head around what I had done and how my life is over as far as I'm concerned. And um, because by this point, I kind of got my life on track. I was working full-time, I was going to school, uh, I was taking community college courses. I wanted to become a nurse. So I started to get on that track, but my drinking was still very much out of control. I was a very functioning alcoholic, as you would say. I paid my bills, I had a nice car, I wore nice clothes, you know, I lived with my girlfriend, but I was drinking every single day when I would get off work. And on the weekends, that would start at like 7:30 a.m. before I even had a piece of you know, toast in my stomach, I would be drinking um, you know, cocktails. And so um after this happened, three or four days later, I'm in my cell, just minding my own business, and I noticed that someone had slid the Oregonian statewide newspaper. They had slid it underneath my door. And I didn't know why. I was confused because I didn't ask anybody to see a paper or anything like that. But I figured there must be something important in there that somebody thinks I should read. So I pick up this paper, I start to flip through the sections, and I see my mugshot, right, staring right back at me. And I start to read this article. And as I'm reading this article, as each paragraph, you know, I read each paragraph, I'm learning about the lives of my victims because at this point they were only, not only, but they were they were names in an indictment, right? That's all, that's all I had known in their ages, um, which was uh mid to late 40s. Um, but now I'm reading about their lives. And come to find out, Matt, these people were um they they were in long-term recovery from drugs and and and alcohol. One had 16 years clean, one had 17 years uh clean and sober. They were um they were very much devoted to helping other people get clean and sober. They would volunteer with um organizations so that ladies could attend AA and NA meetings and they would watch their children so these ladies could attend these these recovery meetings. They were volunteers with volunteers of America. They did work with mothers against drunk driving. They were pillars in the recovery community in Portland, is what I had learned. And the night that this happened, they were actually returning home from a clean and sober New Year's Eve party, right? Celebrating with friends and family, while I was clearly not at a clean and sober New Year's Eve party. I was being drunk and, you know, rambunctious party with a bunch of young folks. And the the columnist concluded the article with a resounding statement that, you know, really set out, you know, put me on this pathway and this mission toward doing what I'm doing today. And he said, he said, perhaps the person they will have ended up helping the most is the man who's charged with killing them. And it was that simple phrase, like it stuck with me. I mean, it hit like a ton of bricks. I didn't quite know how to make sense of it at the time. Again, I'm 24, I know I'm going to prison for roughly 20 years. I'm gonna be an old man right in my 40s when I get out. And um, and he's telling me, or he's he's mentioning it in this article that that this might be the person they will have ended up helping the most. And so I I kind of got back to my roots. We had we had been brought up in the church, and uh, I clearly gotten away from that as a teenager and and started to go my own way. I never, yeah, right, but I never forgot the you know those those those um steadfast principles. And um, so I kind of got back to that and I started to pray. I asked for I asked for um for God to give me revelation into that phrase and how I was supposed to apply it to my life. And I thought it was just supposed to just, you know, magically come to me, right in a in, you know, in a in a in a vivid dream or you know, some supernatural sign to tell me, you know, clearly this is what it means, Martin. It didn't happen that way. It took about six or seven months, but it did finally come to me. And when it came to me, it was it was undeniable that the only way this tragedy will not be in vain is if I carry on these people's legacies and if I literally make it my life's mission to not just help people who are you know struggling uh or not just prevent you know DUI crashes, but to help people who are struggling with substance use issues and the underlying um you know causes of that, which for a lot of us is is mental health and a lack of coping skills, right?

SPEAKER_03 12:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:17

And so in that moment, I said, okay, that's what I'm gonna do. That's how I'm gonna make sense of this whole thing. And I didn't quite know what that would look like. I didn't know what opportunities would avail themselves during my prison term. I didn't know how long I was gonna be in prison. I just knew it was gonna be a long time. And so um, when I got to the prison where they first sent me in uh Eastern Oregon, I saw that they had a college program I could enroll in where they would allow you to take one college course per term and you pay 25 bucks. Um, it was set up by these uh retired GED instructors who had worked at the prison, and um and they would garner uh donations from local businesses and you know philanthropic organizations to provide us, you know, um, you know, the the funds to be able to take college courses. And so I said, okay, well, let me let me start there. And I decided by this point that I want to be a drug and alcohol counselor. I figured that was the easiest, you know, pathway to to make good on what I said I was going to do. And so at this point I had a GED, um, and and that was it. And I figured, well, let me start taking these courses. Maybe at some point, I mean, at some point, they'll they'll give me a degree and and and I'll be on my way. And three years into that, kind of slowly, you know, one course per term, kind of getting credit, few kettles here and there. Tragically, my father passed away uh at the age of 60. He had just turned 60. I lost my mother 13 months prior. That's a whole other thing where I had, I was able to, I wasn't able to attend the funerals, but I was I was um I was allowed to be transported to the funeral home the day before the funeral. So they were all like made up and dressed, makeup and all that stuff. But I'm I'm shackled, right? I'm I'm in a jumpsuit. I've got two armed officers standing behind me as I'm with the casket and you know, kind of saying my final goodbyes. Um, but but at any rate, so when my father passed away, because he had worked hard his whole life doing manual labor to ensure that us kids would have something once he wasn't here. And so um, so I was able to get his uh, you know, life insurance policies and his pension and things like that. And I started to finance my education through distance education courses um outside of the prison through uh you know, through correspondence male courses, uh Louisiana State University and Indiana University and a few others, and I was able to parlay all of that, as you mentioned, into a uh I got an undergrad in sociology, and then I went on to get a master's in psychology. And then I was able to finally transfer to the one prison at the time that had a substance abuse program where um even though I wasn't eligible, I still have five and a half years left of my sentence, and you had to be under a year to be eligible to go into the treatment program. But I knew I needed the the thousand clinical hours to get licensed. And so um I talked to the director of the program, and again, he told me you're not eligible. He said, but I mean, you know, you invested a lot of money into your education and your recovery efforts. Let me see what I can do. Long story short, he was able to get a bunch of red tape cut. They put me through the program as a participant just to learn the ropes of the program, which I needed, by the way. I'd never gone through a treatment program. And I was, you know, at this point, I was able to really understand um, you know, kind of, you know, the difference between um sobriety and recovery. I thought they were, you know, more or less the same. And they're not, right? They're they're they're they're distinctly different, um, which I'm happy to go into later if we want to come back to that. But so I was able to do that, learn about my internal, external triggers, and then I graduated that program, and then I was able to work as I guess an intern of sorts. They would call them call as recovery mentors, but I was able to then get the clinical hours, you know, in in the different domains, uh, assessments and I think that mentorship piece is just so valuable though.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

Um yeah, I'm a big believer that the people we become are meant to serve the people we once were. That's why it's why I do what what I do. It seems that's exactly why you do what you do. Um, you know, to reach back down to the person you were and ensure that nobody else, if possible, has to go through what you went through. Right. Because otherwise like Martin, to be clear, many people might be wondering, Matt, you know, you have a podcast on advocacy and patient advocates. Why'd you bring Martin on? Because we are uh kindred spirits, and I appreciate what this man has done with his cards. He was dealt the cards, uh, you know, and we'll dive into the the childhood and the war zone, because there's a war zone in every child's life right now.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

Right? And we'll talk about that. But where most folks in the healthcare world see a block, you decided, no, I'm gonna use that, and I'm gonna use that for good. And that's what I appreciate about your story. You you didn't let it stop you, as as I'm sure in being incarcerated. You saw many not utilize that time wisely.

SPEAKER_02 17:36

Yeah, I mean, I obviously um you know that's that's that's rampant. Um, but I was I was given opportunity, and I I don't think anything is just by happenstance. I firmly believe that this was a divine intervention in my life, a very tragic one, but an intervention nonetheless that I I very much needed. Because I had you know signs along the way that I was headed down the wrong.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

We don't see them until we look back, right?

SPEAKER_02 18:02

Right, exactly. Then you have 2020 vision. Um, but you know, given the opportunities that I had, I certainly wanted to make good on what I said I was going to do. I didn't get to talk about this, but I during my sentencing, um, you know, after I heard I heard the victim impact statements, I mean, just gut-wrenching as you can imagine from the daughters and family members of you know, these folks who had passed away. And afterwards, I stood up and I addressed the courtroom and I said, um, I said, you know, that my indictment says that I acted with extreme indifference toward the value of human life. But I can I can assure everyone here that my feelings around what happened have been anything but indifferent since the day this happened. And I know it doesn't mean a whole lot right now in this moment, I fully accept that, but I vow to spend the rest of my natural life doing everything I possibly can to prevent other families from experiencing what you're feeling in this moment. And so when I when I made that solemn vow, like I wasn't just saying what sounded good to the judge or the cameras that were there, or even to their family members, right? I like this was this was now inherently a part of Martin Lockett.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

I remember Martin when we when we first talked, you saying that you remembered back to that night, and you weren't thinking about you at night in that night. You were thinking about your brother. Right. And what you put the situation you put your brother in. You know, I'm a twin too, and and you know, twins are we're an interesting bunch. Um I think there's there's a lot psychologically that can be looked at. I think we're always looked at as the nature nurture test subjects, but there's something deeper than that of the innate pressure twins put on themselves because there's only two parents. There's only one dad, right? There's only one mom, but there's two of us, and we're the s they think we're the same person, but we're not. Um, and with that, unbeknownst to parents, comes its own uh struggles and challenges and pressures, and you know, I I relate to you in in being that quieter twin, the uh more shy, the the one who, you know, to be clear, yeah, I needed alcohol when I was younger too, um, to be the person I saw my twin brother as. Right. And you know, different different paths in life, still to this day, right? And I'm sure I I think we discussed this as well. Your twin brother, different path as well. Uh, I think if I'm not mistaken, he took the took after your father.

SPEAKER_02 20:40

Very much. Yeah, he um he my dad again was a a handyman. And so my brother would be underneath the vehicle, you know, as a teenager, learning from him on how to do this and how to do that. And so when I had really spiraled out of control with my alcoholism, he went to Job Corps at 18, right? Um, he went to Job Corps and went through the apprentice, the carpentry apprenticeship. And um, you know, he's been a he's he's been a foreman now for for years, you know, um, on these sites, and he loves it. And he's he he owns the home that my that my father bought in in Portland in 1982 for about $16,000. And uh it's appreciated a little bit since.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

A little bit.

SPEAKER_02 21:22

But uh so he and his wife own the house, and uh, you know, he's got a second house that he bought about 20 years ago. They leased that out. His wife owns a restaurant. I mean, they're they're doing so well, and he he's never the only time he's been in the inside of a jail or prison is to visit his brother, right? Yeah. Um, but I am I am I am beyond grateful that you know he never, you know, the fact that I put him through the trauma of of what happened that night, you know, he didn't he didn't necessarily hold that against me. It certainly affected it traumatized him, right? He, you know, we would drink every day as young men, and he didn't touch alcohol for like the next three or four years. He just wouldn't touch it, not a drop. Um, you know, he does drink today, but he drinks responsibly. Um, but my brother supported me throughout that entire journey, and I've always looked up to him. I he he he he tells me today how proud of me he is, and you know how I've been able to bounce back after you know what happened and and do the things that I'm doing. I travel the country and tell my story, and we can get into all that. Yeah, but um I've always admired my brother. I mean, he's always been the bar for me, right? And and um so yeah, I just I can't say enough things about my brother.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

And and you know, mine is is a uh uh runs as honey hedge fund, extremely successful, and you know, they're both probably doing things that we couldn't see ourselves doing, but all the power, all the power to them. Um, I want to go back though to your childhood. You you talked about your mom who was sick. Um anything in particular that they were able to pin down?

SPEAKER_02 22:59

Well, yeah, no. So my mom in her 30s, um, so she had lupus, which runs in my family. My my my sister, all my mom's sisters, five sisters, all had lupus. Grandmother had lupus, yeah. Um so she had loop, that was her main illness. Then she was diagnosed with diabetes in her early 30s. Um, and I remember how that happened, like we were at church and like she could barely move. I mean, she was just so weak. And then she went to the doctor and then it died, and she had congestive heart failure um later in life. She ended up dying of a heart attack at 51 um outside of a Safeway grocery store, uh, having just bought all the groceries for Christmas. It was on it was on December uh 20th that she passed away of 2006, and um with my sister and my nephew um right there. And so my mom had just, I mean, she had just been afflicted. Her her and all of her sisters, so they all passed away. Um, well, no, one of them made it to 61, but all the others were in their 50s. Um, even on my dad's side, I mean, you know, his brothers uh passed away in their 50s. My dad had just turned 60 two weeks prior, he died of a stroke.

SPEAKER_00 24:07

Um so yeah, that's that's that's see, and and you know, what we know now uh from the advocacy community is that most African American women with lupus, especially in the 80s um and 90s, were ignored. Flat out, um thought to have been lazy or um seeking pain medication when that was not the case. And lupus to this day is still not well understood and not well managed um by clinicians. And it's it's an illness that I'm sure you got to unfortunately watch ravage your mom without many answers. And that that didn't help the mentality of a young boy with older sisters that looks up looks up to women that wants to help and keep it.

SPEAKER_02 24:59

Right, right. Right. And if my mom was just at that point, just so um, you know, uh stricken, you know, by her by her diseases that she couldn't be. And I'll tell you to to add on to that growing up, my mom would walk us to school two miles every day. She was she walked every day. She had her Nike Air Maxes, and that one was warm. She would garden, she would do all the things, and then as those afflictions took over, she became um less than less I mean, almost I would say almost bedridden. I mean, she she wasn't physically in the bed, but she would sit on her uh on you know on her love seat and read Danielle Steele novels, um, one after another, and she started smoking cigarettes. Um started drinking beer, and I'm thinking, and wine, cheap wine and cheap beer. Um, and I think at the and her doctor would tell her, Maria, you can't you can't continue, you have congestive heart failure, you can't continue to drink and smoke. And I'm I'm telling you, Matt, she had said, she said, Well, I know I don't have much time left anyway, so I'm at least gonna enjoy my little things as I as I can, right? Like she had totally given up on life.

SPEAKER_00 26:07

Yeah. Um my grandmother was the same way. Told that she had congestive heart failure, and I don't think I ever saw that woman without a case of Coors Light in the refrigerator and at least a carton of cigarettes. And, you know, in her opinion, God made them so they, you know, it was a plant, so um it couldn't be that bad. And um God bless them that they want they they took their own route, but at the same time, they don't recognize the impact that that has on the family.

unknown 26:37

Right.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

And it's hard to be a caregiver to someone who doesn't want it.

SPEAKER_02 26:43

Right. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

And I think that you know, in your in your role in in Lines for Life, you probably come across a lot of kids who are in very similar situations.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

Yeah. Yeah, we um so to speak about Lines for Life and the work that we do, and I'm I'm so incredibly um excited and and and proud about everything that we have going on. So in my department, um, we're equity and cultural engagement. Um, so we strictly focus on BIPOC and marginalized communities to bring our services into um the stigma around mental health and suicide prevention and uh even substance use you know disorder, um, is very, very, very prevalent. It is uh, you know, at an all-time high. You talk about distrust for the healthcare system writ large, right? And behavioral health being a part of that.

SPEAKER_03 27:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:33

But having to tip away at that, um, you know, we're much more likely to, you know, talk to our barber or hairstylist about what's going on as opposed to seeing a licensed therapist, right?

SPEAKER_00 27:44

See, and that that knowledge right there of understanding the outlets is what makes you so valuable in the community, is that you know to address these men and young boys head on, you have to go to the community, to those current trusted environments.

SPEAKER_02 28:01

That's right. Yep. And so we so we we go in, we train barbers and hairstylists in uh uh mental health first aid or the uh the new B sensitive B Brave curricula, which is the culturally infused um trainings around mental health suicide prevention, substance use prevention. Um and we train them so that when their patrons are talking to them about life, they can you know be queued up to listen for certain things, right? That might be indicative of you know some underlying mental health challenge or suicidal ideation. We teach them what to say and how to respond and what not to say, right? We teach them how to um, you know, kind of is you know, the be sensitive, be brave. The being brave part is to to know how to make that that that referral to that professional that they should reach out to, you know, when they leave that that chair. Um, or if they're having thoughts around suicide, to be brave in asking directly around, you know, suicidal ideation and what that might look like. And so they're just very practical, you know, kind of, you know, very, very easy skills to learn, but so vital in us kind of advocating for ourselves and showing up for our communities, right? Um, and knowing how to be supportive. And so that's one of our initiatives. And then what we do is so we'll train them, and then a couple months later we'll go back into that barbershop. We've gotten uh the word out to the community that on this day, usually a Saturday afternoon, we're gonna host a barbershop conversation. We're gonna have a DJ, we're gonna have food, um, we're gonna have folks getting haircuts, and then at some point when the shop is pretty full, we're gonna have a conversation around mental health, right? And why it's important for us to be aware of that in our communities and why um you know we need to be better about reaching out for help and looking out for those around us who might be struggling but don't know you know who to reach out to or what to say or things like that.

SPEAKER_00 29:51

And so how are the how do those conversations how are those conversations typically received?

SPEAKER_02 29:57

Yeah, just so it different communities are different. I mean, we we work so we work with we work with um African immigrants, which is a whole different um, you know, situation we do around fentanyl awareness and prevention. And with them, it's not just about the stigma, addressing stigma, but it's also um a sense of shame that the the adults will feel if their kid is starting to engage in you know illicit drug use um or alcohol consumption, then they feel a sense of shame that they have somehow let their kids down and let their communities down by their kid, right, engaging these things. So that's a whole separate thing we have to do. But I would say generally, so whenever I go in to do a training, whether if it's a barbershop training conversation or just at a community-based organization, I always use anecdotes from my personal story because I'm I'm there as a face to say, look, I went through these things. I attempted suicide when I was 16, right? I took a bunch of my mom's muscle relaxers thinking I was gonna do it. I just woke up in the morning and I couldn't move. Um, but but so I attempt, and my oldest sister died by suicide in 2016 at the age of 42. And so I talk about these things to just humanize them, to normalize them. Yeah, to say that we don't, I mean, you know, these things are happening in our community. We can talk about stats and all this and that, um, and that's great, but you really need to put a face to it, human stories behind behind this work um to make it real for people, you know.

SPEAKER_00 31:30

And so I was just speaking, I was just speaking with a with a writer, um, you know, as we try to change some health policy. And unfortunately, as you said, it's not real in a legislator's mind, it's not real in most of the community's mind until it impacts someone that they can recognize.

SPEAKER_02 31:48

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 31:49

Right. And if you're putting yourself in that situation and putting yourself out there, now it's really bringing it home.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

Absolutely. So these trainings may feel somewhat clinical. I think less so the be sensitive, be brave ones are less clinical than the mental health first aid and others that have been out there for a while. But um, we really want to make them personable, right? And so, and so that's kind of my approach. I have trainers on the team who work under me. They do it the way that they do it because they don't have that type of lived experience. Sure. Um, and that's fine. You know, we we all have our styles, but the fact that they can see, you know, because all the the kind of scenarios in these trainings are of BIPOC people, right? Of folks from LGBTQ, um, of immigrant, immigrant stories, right? And what could what could um cause them to uh you know start to feel suicidal. Um and so and so it's all relevant to the communities that we serve. And so that's um, we work with Spanish speaking communities. We have a bilingual trainer on our team, and um, and so her approach is a little bit different. They do more um kind of uh, you know, they have them sit in a circle, and um, you know, kind of you have to really ease into those conversations. You can't just go in and start talking about depression and anxiety and suicidal ideation. You have to just maybe start talking about you know work-life balance and stress related to raising kids, right? Um, and and feeling guilty about taking a as a woman, right? And also feeling guilty about even taking a 10-minute break during the day, right, for yourself. And and so to know that that's okay. Exactly, exactly. So we'll start there and then kind of build and eventually get to where we're talking about suicidal ideation. So it's just understanding the communities that we serve and listening, and then adapting our approach to meet those, to meet those needs.

SPEAKER_00 33:42

Yep, yep, and and I I absolutely love that approach, and and one of the things that um my work with the pharmaceutical and biotech industry has really you know shown me, and and it's it shouldn't sound uh profound, but for some reason in the industry it is, is that you can't just expect to show up and then things are gonna change. If you show up and then you leave and you come back again at another time, all that folks are thinking is why what are you doing here? What do you want from me? Right? And if we're going to make change in a community, it's not a quarterly or annual thing, it's a long-term 5, 10, 15, 20 year commitment, which is what you are doing. I mean, as we we discussed early, um, you don't live in Portland, Oregon, but you still serve the community.

SPEAKER_02 34:38

Right. Portland will always be my community. I'm there every month for about a week. Um, it is a commitment to fly back and forth, right? Changing time zones and having to adapt and then readapt. And but when I go home, I'm like, this is this is my community. And I think about when I was a young man, and we have we have a culturally specific um nine-month curriculum that we use in our schools, specifically for black and brown boys, specifically for kids who are at risk, and those who have been criminally justice involved. Um and it's called HEAT, it stands for Rehabilitation, Empowerment, Accountability Therapy. And uh, I mean, it walks these boys through everything from what your definition of a man is to what an actual man is, to the importance of respecting the the women you know in your lives and and and the the disconnect that they have from you know hearing hearing about what little Wayne is rapping about versus actually living that out, right? Um you know, all of that. Um, you know, what it means to be um you know a part of your community and why that's important and to you know be your brother's keeper and all of those things. Um and these boys we've seen, and these are boys in middle school, high school, and they're I'm telling you, their counselors have come back at the end of that nine-month you know school year and us going in and doing that curriculum twice a week, they have seen these boys' reading scores improve by up to 97%. They have seen them be much more respectful to their women teachers. Yes, and it's not that it's not that this curriculum is some magical curriculum, but I like to think that because we give these boys a space, and many of them have been exposed to gun violence and and have seen family members lost and friends lost and people they know. Yeah, we give them a safe space to process that, to talk about that, to be real about that, which then allows them to go into their studies with a clear mind, right? Yes. Focus on academics, right? They're not carrying the weight of the trauma um, you know, that they've been saddled with for the last however many years.

SPEAKER_00 36:43

Yeah. So they they don't they haven't had that space, they haven't felt comfortable talking about it because it's also probably been drilled into them that we don't talk about it, right? And it's not manly to cry and let your feelings out, right? Um all those things that you and I as men know, right? And but also as you referenced as well, that there's a flip side to it, right? And and understanding what it takes for a woman to let down her guard. And right, it's we have to stop looking at people as patients or customers and start looking at them as people.

SPEAKER_02 37:19

Right, right. And I think you know, it's it's it's really important that I'm really glad you said that, because so I'm a you know, a drug and alcohol counselor. I don't I don't necessarily practice it today in my current role, but you know, I would when I was what when I was working with folks one-on-one, you know, I really made it important, uh it was really important for me to to work with them and you know, not just see them as you know, uh, you know, somebody there for um you know alcohol use or for marijuana, you know, addiction or anything like that. That was certainly a part of it. But the treatment plan was really to treat the whole person. I mean I'm just as interested in you know your you know how how how your relationship is going with you know your spouse or your kids as I am about the substance use disorder that we're they were trying to treat. Yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_00 38:07

The whole person.

SPEAKER_02 38:09

Exactly. What are you doing for fun? What you know, what are you doing for some downtime, for some, you know, some self-care? Like all of that is just so I'm looking at the whole person and not just focus on this this one, you know, what brought you you know into the office, right? Sure. And that's that's how we start to treat the people and not just the symptom.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

Yeah. Where do you see gaps right now in communities? Do you think that employers, schools, you know, who needs to take a bigger role in transitioning our culture from one that that is very isolating to one that we can see each other as potential outlets?

SPEAKER_02 38:51

Yeah. Um, gosh, that's uh, I mean, you know, I work for just a little nonprofit, mid-sized nonprofit in in Portland, Oregon. Um we certainly, we certainly could be, could be doing more in schools. Um, I think there really needs to be a bridge between the the school system and um uh you know, CBOs, um, other stakeholders who are doing the work, right? It's so hard to get into like we tried to get in a port, we we've had some some success, but not nearly as much as I think we could if we have more access to um speaking about Portland public schools, um, but to be able to get in there and do this critical work. I mean, you really need to reach kids for the work that we do, you know, behavioral health, um, it really has to have it should happen during the most tumultuous time of a young person's life, which is between, you know, 13 and and and 20, right? During that, you know, during that phase where you're you're transitioning from a child to a young adult, you know, you go undergoing puberty and you gain independence and you're formulating an identity and just worldwide. Oh my god. Um there's a lot going on. And so we really need to have as much wraparound support during that time, that very fragile, critical time, as much as we possibly can. And so I just think if there was, you know, less red tape as far as I mean, I know you have to bet organizations and people coming in and wanting to work with kids, I get all that. Yeah, but um, I mean, there has to be a way for there to be, you know, more fluidity in in that relationship um just with our our school system.

SPEAKER_00 40:30

I'd even say, you know, employers, right? Um that the employer has a opportunity and you know, to some extent, a responsibility to to to do what's best, not just for the the business, but to do what's best for their people. Um and I know that there are a lot of organizations that work as somewhat um you know uh corporate benefit type programs um or or add-ons to what their human resources department might be able to accomplish. Um but you know, you said it best we need to start connecting community-based organizations and patient advocacy organizations and local hospitals and missions and the the churches so that everyone does feel like their support and that we're not trying to go at uh go at this alone.

SPEAKER_02 41:22

Exactly. We really do a disservice to the communities we say we serve and society writ large when we work in silos. Yes, right. None of us, none of us have all the answers for how to treat or care for an entire person, right? Or an entire family. Um, we certainly can specialize in what we do and we're gonna do it to our best ability, but but we're not gonna we're not gonna be able to do what you all can do or what the you know what what you know these folks over here, this after school program, or you know, this this um you know this uh uh clinic over here or whatever the case, like we but there there has to be um you know more collaboration, should be more collaboration amongst these entities um you know to be able to serve the needs, especially of you know of our young people, but I think not society writ large.

SPEAKER_00 42:08

I mean ultimately if if you really boil it down, you know, the work that you're doing is truly a national security issue.

SPEAKER_02 42:17

Well, yeah, I mean we've seen just since the pandemic, especially, you know, I mean, you know, you see what AI is is doing um now and and the big lawsuit against, you know, uh oh god, the people that are turning to AI.

SPEAKER_00 42:32

Open A open AI was recently sued because it either gave misleading advice, I think, or it's been at times telling people to kill themselves.

SPEAKER_02 42:43

Exactly. Yeah, there was a case, I think, in Mississippi just a few months back where I want to say a 12 or 13 year old was guided by uh an AI bot um to take their life, to cross over, right? So they could be together, to cross over. And so that's a whole other thing. We don't have any trainings right now around that. That definitely needs to be embedded in the the you know more suicide prevention training, yeah, mental health trainings. But just the disconnect that you know that that our kids are experiencing these days from being inundated with social media and not making real connections in the community at schools, after school, and things like that. Like when I was growing up, uh, you know, uh spent so much time outdoors and you know in little league and and and pop corner football and you could you could disconnect. Right, exactly, exactly. So um, you know, that's certainly taken a t a toll um you know on our kids' mental health. Um, and so yeah, it's it's something that uh it's a new world and now with with AI, you know, being um, you know, on the rise. And uh so yeah, it's just I mean we we have to go harder. We have we have to be more intentional.

SPEAKER_00 43:54

You know, um when you think about this role of AI, obviously there's Everyone's got a school of thought on its impact, but I'm it's pretty darn clear off the data that it has not been beneficial to the mental health of children. Uh, but uh what was eye-opening to me was some of the stories you were telling me about the current use of some of these platforms and how they are um isolating and pulling kids out of their current environment to hook them.

SPEAKER_02 44:26

Right. Absolutely. Um, you know, it's much it's much easier to have a conversation and a and ultimately develop a relationship with with somebody who, you know, they're not gonna reject you, right? They're not gonna tell you you're ugly or you're stupid or you're fat or you're this or you're that. They're gonna tell you everything you want to hear, right? Why would not that not be enticing to a kid who's struggling with insecurities and self-doubt and and all these things, right? Of course that's gonna be enticing. And so much easier to connect um with that than it is, you know, for but again, you're never gonna um substitute the the dopamine um burst that we get from actual human eye-to-eye contact and interaction and socialization. There's no replacement for that. So that's why it's it's it's critically detrimental um, you know, that that starts, you know, to be addressed and kids understand the dangers associated if they get too involved with um, and I don't know if that's strictly uh, you know, you just you know the parents it's on the parents to to limit their time, or if there's more regulation around and I know that's a discussion in Congress and things like that, as far as to what degree do we regulate that um for kids 16 and under.

SPEAKER_00 45:39

Yeah, no, it's it's a it's a vital conversation, but uh, you know, I I don't think people really know what they're up against. Right. Right, you know, especially the the population that you discussed earlier, the the northern African population uh and and you know, immigrants to this country who uh I think in our discussion you were referencing sometimes these parents uh have the the child as the liaison to this world, right? They're English is not their language, the kid becomes translator, um, but that's a tough position for a child going through everything we discussed with puberty and and uh social uh impacts and trying to be part of a group to then also be caregiver, really. Um but the opportunity, but the the the um the pitfall that social media then can become with no one else really able to understand what it's all about.

SPEAKER_02 46:39

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 46:40

I think you had specified um uh a platform, we don't have to you know point any of them out. I think there's there's elements of all of them that are bad. Um, but uh if I'm not mistaken, uh you had referenced, you know, they're looking for guys who have broken up with their girlfriends.

SPEAKER_02 46:58

Right, yeah. Um and so yeah, there is so we we found in our work with the Somali community um uh around fentanyl awareness and the reason why we we we not target, but we selected that community is because um so Portland has the second highest or second um uh yeah, I guess highest concentration of Somali immigrants outside of the state of Minnesota, which I didn't even know that, right? I mean, I just learned that over the last couple years. So huge, huge Somali um population. But the the um the numbers tell us that that community is being hit um you know at a disproportionate rate as far as fentanyl um overdoses and deaths um than other BIPOC communities. And so we really wanted to um you know work with them. And again, there's a language barrier, so we had to you know work with interpreters. Well, so with the kids, the young people, they all speak English, right? You can go in and just start talking about what is fentanyl and why is it so deadly and how are kids how are you being targeted. And then with the adults, it's an entirely separate thing. You're speaking it through an interpreter, and like you said, you can't just go in one time and think you're gonna have such a uh you know a substantive conversation around this this really tough topic, and they they seen your face one time. It took about a year, and that's still very a very short amount of time, but a year of them you know continually continually seeing our faces, showing up, and then they start to trust that okay, we are actually there because we care about them, and not just because we're kind of we're trying to check a box or need to fulfill a grant requirement or whatever the case, right?

SPEAKER_03 48:36

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 48:37

Um and so, but but yeah, so we told the kids, the research showed that um there's a particular platform um there's a lot of kids are on that um where other kids will who who have fentanyl pills, fenta pills, we call them, um, but they have these fentanyl-laced pills, and they will specifically target kids and look for kids who are on there who are going through a tough time. Whether it be they recently went through a breakup or their parents grounded them or they failed a test at school or whatever, like they're just downtrodden. And they're and they're using that platform to to express, you know, how how you know terrible life is at that moment for them. And these kids will befriend them and say, hey, uh it seems like you're having a really tough time. I get it, I've been there. And they'll just talk to them and and you know, uh, you know, uh try to encourage them over over the course of a week or comfort them. And then they say, Hey, I've got this medication. It's totally legit, it's prescribed, it's safe, but it'll it'll just make everything better. You won't have to feel, you know, this this this this torment that you're feeling right now. And they'll meet it because now the kid have has gained their trust. Oh, this person, you know, they they've been my friend for the past week and they care about what I'm going through, that they wouldn't do anything to hurt me. Um, and sure enough, and the pills look real. You cannot tell the difference in many cases between a fake one and a real one. That's what we're doing our training. And the kid takes a pill and and that's it. And so before they used to only track numbers, statistics um from kids who uh was I think 15 and up, and now they've they because of so many, now they're tracking it down to even age 12. Wow, yeah, it's it's it's sad, man.

SPEAKER_00 50:22

See, and and and I I wanted you to to bring that up. I mean, I'm a parent of 12 and 13 year olds, and you know, we don't know what they know, right? Like it's amazing to think that these young children have access to the world in their pocket, right? And with that comes good and a whole lot of bad and a lot of responsibility as parents um to be on the lookout for what you know things that they don't understand, they think that they're just going along to get along or trying to get in with a group, and next thing you know, they're hooked on pills or they've passed from fentanyl, and the parents are still trying to figure out where the kid went.

SPEAKER_02 51:06

Right.

SPEAKER_00 51:06

You know, right, or or how did this happen in my household? And as you referenced, when you're dealing with a a culture that sees it as a a failure on the family, um, that makes it that much more difficult.

SPEAKER_02 51:22

Absolutely. And I think it's just frankly, it's it's a lack of, I mean, the parents might not even know what to look for if they I'm telling you, when it when it came to that community, they had no idea what fentanyl was, they didn't know how it was coming in, they didn't know why it was deadly, like all like this was totally a foreign because they just don't discuss it, right? And they're not they're not, you know, they're not unique to that.

SPEAKER_00 51:42

There's a lot of households that my Italian household, are you kidding me?

SPEAKER_02 51:47

Exactly, exactly. So it's not just an immigrant problem, it's it's an American problem. It's a world world over problem.

SPEAKER_00 51:55

It's a it's a problem when we are all worried about what other people think.

SPEAKER_02 52:00

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 52:01

That's that can be the byproduct.

SPEAKER_02 52:03

And we have to start getting real that that tragedy can strike our families just as much as anybody else's. We have to start being honest about that. I know you you think the world of your kids and they're you know getting straight A's and all this and that. I'm telling you these kids are going through things that that you would never know. So I always, always, yeah, when I'm out doing a training, I tell these people, if you have, if you have kids, I don't care what age, like you, as early as you can, have conversations with them about tough times. And and and when they are going through things, it is absolutely okay and highly encouraged to come and talk to me about it. If you don't understand it, come talk to me about it. If you if you haven't thought, if even if the thought around suicide, right? I know you can do that in the age-appropriate way, but don't feel shame around that. That is a that is a normal thing. A lot of people have thoughts around suicide, right? At some point, yes, most of us have had a thought, whether it be passive or whatever, about suicide. So don't feel embarrassed about that. Come and talk to me about it. I'm not gonna, you know, have you committed or, you know, whatever you do. But really encourage those conversations early on so they know if anything comes up in me, right? Because I knew when I was 16, 15, 16, 17, and I'm struggling, I knew I was struggling, Matt. Yeah. Also, as much as I love my parents, they're old school, mental health was not, we never discussed mental health in my family. Yeah. So I just didn't feel that I could talk to them. I mean, they they loved me to death, right? But I just didn't feel that that this was something that I could talk to um with them about and that they would understand and be encouraging. And so I I held it, right? I held it. It it built and it built and it built. I didn't know how to handle it, and alcohol was my way out.

SPEAKER_00 53:48

Yep, yep. And as as you are wonderfully doing, going back and identifying all of the pitfalls that you hit and making sure that those are as to the best of your ability aren't pitfalls for others.

SPEAKER_02 54:04

That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 54:06

Uh you've done amazing work. Um, what to you has been the best piece of advice that you've gotten?

SPEAKER_02 54:15

The best piece of well, I mean, this is this is something separate. When I was when I was uh you know actively working um as a clinician, you know, because I care about work so much. And I don't know if this is gonna really resonate with, I hope it resonates with some people who are out there doing the work. Um, you know, but I would, I would, because I care so much about the the the clients that I worked with, and I wanted to see them get sober and be there for their kids and stay out of prison and live their best life. And it would gut me if I would hear about them going back out, relapsing, going back to prison, or dying, right? Dying from overdose. It would gut me because in some way I felt that I had failed them.

SPEAKER_00 54:58

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 54:59

Something I didn't do right, something I didn't say right.

SPEAKER_00 55:01

You missed you missed something. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:03

Exactly. And I remember my my my clinical supervisor at the time when I talked to him about one a client that I had at the time, and I said, Man, I just I feel like I feel like I I could have done more, he said, Martin. He said, I learned a long time ago, he said, that we are not solely responsible for people's recovery, and we are not to blame for their relapse. So we never get too high, right? If somebody does go off and live their best life and never touch alcohol or drugs again, and they get married and start a Fortune 500 company and all that, great, we apply that. But it's not because of us. We we had some small role in that.

SPEAKER_03 55:46

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 55:46

But they did the work, right? They put in the work, they made the commitment, they, you know, resisted temptation, they did that. So we can't take credit for their recovery, and in the same token, we can't blame ourselves when they relapse. And that was just, I mean, it it lifted such a heavy weight off of me, right?

SPEAKER_00 56:07

That's an amazing point. Yeah, so again, I don't know if that's gonna help you, but that was you have no idea how much that's gonna help this community because uh it's something that we all feel, right? And I've talked to a couple ER docs uh, you know, on a very similar vein, and it's something that they have to learn too, right? As much as you as much as you think you're Superman, life is life, and life is short and precious, and there's things we can't control. Yeah, right. Um, I'm a big believer in controlling the controllables, but you have to also have to know what you can't control.

SPEAKER_02 56:44

That's right. A A, we do the serenity prayer, yes, right? So sex well, what you can control and what you can't. Um, but I get it because we all show up, you know, those of us, those of us who work in in the healthcare field and behavioral health field, we we we do this work, we got into this work because you know it means something to us personally, right? And we're passionate about serving people, we're servants of people, we're living this this purpose-filled life. And so, and so sometimes that can that can you know um you know kind of cross over into then also carrying this this undue burden of of feeling like we failed somebody if they die, they relapse, whatever the case. But it's really um it's not fair to us. I think you know the what we're responsible for is showing up as our best selves every day, which means we're taking care of ourselves and our needs and our self-care. So we can show up and be the best for other people we serve, and we do the best we can, right? And then and then, you know, um people and the universe and and circumstances will will dictate the rest. But I think as long as we're showing up in the best way and serving people in the best way that we can, then that's gotta be enough.

SPEAKER_00 57:57

How about the fact that you're just you're the one who's showing up? That's it. I mean, to give yourself grace, but to also give yourself those pats on the back are two of the most important things you can possibly do, in my opinion. Absolutely. Um when you when you think back, you know, we you you've we've hit on the your best piece of of advice. What's the best compliment that you feel you've received?

SPEAKER_02 58:23

Well, so I think you know, when I when I made this vow, and this is personal for me, yeah, when I made this vow to carry on um this work and and and honoring my victims, um so about six months ago, one of the daughters of one of the women who passed away found me on Instagram, and I get this DM and she says, Hi Martin. Um, because every time I'm out speaking in high schools and colleges and things like that, I take pictures and um reels and things like that. So I'm thinking my platform is about my mission. And she said, um, I just want to thank you for the work that you're doing. She said, My mom was an incredible woman. I would love to talk to you more about more about her to you someday if you're interested. But um, but she would be proud of the work that you're doing today. So keep on doing what you're doing, and um, and thank you for making good on what you said you were going to do. So I mean, I've gotten many compliments over the years, man, and but there is none that that would supersede that, you know.

SPEAKER_00 59:29

God bless her for reaching out and and saying that. Um, but yeah, you you have done amazing work, and you know, let's let's not put it lightly, you have uh uh done a complete 180 in your life. You've been faced you've faced some very hard um times as a child, to be clear, um that uh no child should ultimately ever have to experience, but we all do in different ways. Um you took what you were dealt. We all make bad decisions, but you didn't let that define you. And I think that, you know, um we're as as you said, you're a believer, I'm a believer, uh, as you can clearly see. Um you know, we're all put on this earth with a purpose. And at times we can get off track and he'll nudge us, he'll get he'll be get us back on track, and if we keep going off track, sometimes he really has to get our attention. You know, I'm uh I'm I firmly believe that I broke my neck because I was not listening. Um you know, I had four uh major surgeries on on my knees before that. Wow and I I just wasn't I knew what I wanted to do. Right, and it wasn't in alignment with my purpose. And you know, I I don't think God said, All right, we're gonna break his neck. Um, but the situation was what it was, and I wouldn't change it at all. I I'd go back and and all those 18 years of of opiate dependence and pain, and you know, my wife would probably say differently. Um, but I would do it again because of what it provided me pers in perspective. Yep. And your story is one of those that people need to read about and they can, which is fantastic. Uh, if you could tell everyone about your book, which we'll you can find in the show notes as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:36

Sure. Um yeah, so I so I actually wrote I wrote my my memoir, my first memoir, um, when I was still inside. So I wrote it in my prison cell and ended up self-publishing. Um, that one is called Prison of Purpose Pipeline. Um, I went on to write a second book. It was a collection of blogs. I was writing for uh an inmate, um, an inmate uh friendly website at the time about prison life and overcoming circumstances, and so I published that uh collection of blogs, but I'm super duper excited. And I know this is airing before November, but November 12th, um my memoir manifesto, um Tragedy Transformed, um, will be out. And um, this is you know, it's it's it's a you know, each chapter kind of features a um an anecdote from my life, but then the lessons that I've learned to overcome that, and I use studies to substantiate what I'm saying, and I've got reflection questions to help people who are going through whether it be you know overcoming shame and guilt for something you've done or navigating grief, um, you know, or dealing with imposter syndrome, right? Which is something I've dealt with since I've been out and you know, begun begun to overcome. And so um, it's just a more well-rounded um, you know, uh story uh of my life. Yeah, but certainly the first who are out there, and um, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:00

That's fantastic. I and I highly, highly, highly recommend that folks get your books. Um it's there's something for us all to learn in your story, um, but no more important than your focus on your own mental well-being and for those around you and the work that you continue to do in the community for for the the kids truly um to to re refocus on what's really important in in this life. Um my last question for all my guests is always the same. Would I I just tweak the timeline a little bit, but if you could go back to when you were 24 years old on that January 1st after the accident, what would you tell your or let's even go the next couple of days, or even you can even do this at your sentencing. What would you tell the you at that point knowing what you know now?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:58

Yeah, gosh. I mean, I would I I would have told myself that um, well, I mean, I wish I could have gone back even further and and told myself that I didn't I didn't need the validation of other kids around me to you know to feel important. Um that uh you know um that alcohol was never going to solve any problems, it was only gonna make things worse. Um but once the crash had happened, if we're if we're you know kind of going into that space, I would just tell Martin that in the end it's it's gonna be beyond your wildest dreams. Like what God is going to do for the next 17 and a half years for you, buckle up. Um so do not be discouraged, do not be afraid, um, you know, stay focused on the goal because I'm telling you, the the rainbow at the end of that storm is gonna just blow your mind. And um He is good. Yeah, amen, all the time.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:57

Yeah, all the time that's Mar it's been absolutely fantastic conversation, Martin. I appreciate you sharing your story, you really opening yourself up for all of the listeners, but also uh to the everyone that's that's in the healthcare industry as a whole. I think that there's a lot for folks to understand about the importance of community-based organizations. Um and my work with industry, we are pushing these you know Fortune 500 type companies to recognize that you don't know who you're actually serving. You need to get out and don't do it on your own because that ain't gonna happen, right? Uh you gotta you got a a stamp on your chest that says industry, but to partner with community-based organization, uh, organization like Lines for Life and to tap into your knowledge, tap into your understanding and the needs of that community through those that serve them already, that understand what foot what folks are facing on a daily basis, that I don't care how long of time you as an industry individual spend in that community, you will never get that that that understanding and that knowledge. So to tap into organizations like yours, to tap into experts like you that know what needs to be done to support those organizations, not just with grants um to keep doing the work that you're doing, but to do more. As you said, you know that there's more that can be done. Um, and at the end of the day, I'm a big believer that if you do the right thing, everything else falls into place.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:41

Absolutely. I mean, talk about higher level, you know, policy advocacy, yes, um, you know, uh data research. Like, we don't have a whole, you know, built-out data team. So like there's numerous ways to collaborate with us on the ground, but together imagine what we could do right to serve the populations we say we we care about and want to show up for. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:01

Exactly. Exactly. Well, Martin, thank you so much for your time. It's been a privilege. And again, everyone can find access to Martin, uh, his books and his his social media. Feel free, as always, to reach out to us at Building the Noise. We'd love to share your story and ensure that everyone understands the importance of their voice as we face healthcare together. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:23

Thank you.