Building The Noise with Susan Hensley: EPISODE 009

SPEAKER_01 0:00

In 2013, my dad was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. My mom was a nurse for 50 years. And I was the resident healthcare expert in my family, having been in the biopharma industry for many years. But when it happens to you, it's like, where's the navigator? He passed away four months post his diagnosis. Here's my mom who had been a nurse for 50 years. I knew enough that be asking questions, but the resources weren't, they just weren't there.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

Welcome to the Building the Noise Podcast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Building the Noise Podcast. Today we have the privilege of sitting down with a true champion for the patient voice in healthcare, Susan Hensley. Susan is the team lead for a U.S. advocacy function with a global pharmaceutical company. And with three decades of experience, she has dedicated her career to ensuring that the lived experiences of cancer patients are at the absolute center of medical innovation. From guiding conversations on how AI can empower patients to drive health equity initiatives, Susan is at the forefront of uniting industry, advocacy, and health systems. Susan, thank you for joining us today.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

Matt, thanks so much for having me and really appreciate this platform that you've created to have real conversations about advocacy. Genuinely grateful to be here and look forward to the conversation today.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

Yeah. So I like to start out with everyone with the same question, which is why do you do the work that you do?

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Yeah, it's a really good question. So advocacy work, first of all, is so rewarding. And I'm grateful to be able to be in this role to really, at the end of the day, it's it's about helping others. And I've seen through um through various roles that I've had, you know, in industry and even prior to industry, um, the impact and the change that we can make when we work together truly help others, um, in this case have access to what they need when when faced with a diet with a cancer diagnosis. Um so many people are, you know, first of all, devastated with that diagnosis. I don't know anyone that that isn't, but then having to um, you know, really fight the system to oftentimes navigate to get to get the care you need, to get the access to the medicines that you need. Um, I do what I do because it's truly, I truly believe that advocacy is making a difference for patients. Um, both on the policy side, when I worked in that space, yeah, it was it was the impact of um a group of people coming together, um, you know, multi-stakeholder um types of organizations, patients, patient advocacy groups, medical organ, medical societies, um, other stakeholders, and in the the benefit of a coalition coming together to truly make change, policy change that can impact um, you know, millions of people, honestly, um in the right direction. But where I sit now within um the organization, within our organization, um, is in above-brand commercial, um, you know, working across a team that unites access, affordability, equity, and advocacy so that people who are impacted by a diagnosis of cancer have what they need at the right time to help them navigate effectively.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

Yeah, and it's something that in our research we have always heard attributed to you and your organization is that going at it as a group approach, they always feel included and a part of the conversation, which I know is is work that you have led uh within your organization. But you know, as you think about building those coalitions, it may have been as you referenced in your work, uh let's we can even go as far back as your work in commercial, um, and then uh as you said, you you went into the government and policy space and then advocacy, but help the audience, which many of our listeners are also in the industry, looking at how do I make that pivot? Uh, what was it about those those domains that you said, you know what, that's where I want to be? And how did you end up in those positions?

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Yeah, no, it's it's a really good question. And I would say my my career journey was not uh necessarily linear, but I did, you know, enter the industry in the sales in the commercial sales organization in a variety of areas, you know, primary care, cardiovascular, um, hospital, a variety of roles and also account management. And I when I was working in the account management space, I I happened to be um working um in tobacco cessation was one area. And as we all know, there's a lot of advocacy work that goes into tobacco cessation and in fighting for policies, really. Um, but again, working with we had we had some advocates within health systems. We, you know, I had the opportunity to work with the American Lung Association at the time, the American Cancer Society, and really saw the benefit of the multi-stakeholder organizations coming together to drive change. And so it was that point in time that there were, there was, so I had been in commercial, I guess, for about 14 years at that point in time, but there was an opportunity to pivot into state government relations where you know I was able to, you know, fortunate enough to get that role, having some of the experience. And I think understanding the business, first of all, and many of the issues that are impacting the business is really important.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

One of the things that you have referenced here in your work there, that account management. And uh it's something that I've recognized in the research that I do, that those that always perform the best is their ability to manage relationships just like they did their accounts. You recognize, as you referenced here, the value of different voices and different stakeholders and bringing them together. You don't always have to be the expert. Sometimes you just have to be the convener. Uh, what has that worked helped help to allow you to do with regards to the maybe the policy space, but also uh as you reference the advocacy world?

SPEAKER_01 6:31

Yeah, it's a really good point and good question. Um, I think it's seeing the value in what different stakeholders can bring to the table. I think it's, you know, the importance of the patient voice and even helping patients understand that their voice is really important. Also looking at, in many cases, it's understanding the issues that healthcare providers are facing and that their voice is important and bringing that to the table and that it really is a collective effort that is needed to help advocate and drive change. So many people, even that I talk to personally, you know, don't think about the importance of their voice and their story and how it really can impact change. I have to say, I don't know that I ever picked up the phone to talk to my local legislator before I worked in government relations, but just seeing just seeing the impact of the patient voice or whomever it might be, having those conversations with people that are in a position to make change really makes a big difference. I think in the work that that I'm doing now in oncology advocacy, we've seen the impact of dating back over the past seven years, the impact of bringing together patient organizations, patient voices, you know, what's important to them, what's important to, you know, to our organization, where can we come together to truly drive change? And some of the work that we've done dating back to 2019 is our um our POPSI ecosystem that we call it. But back in 2019, it was about 30 advocacy leaders coming together with with our organization leaders and aligning on what can we do to work together to really make change for patients? Where are the advocates seeing barriers to people accessing care? And it really boiled down to like three key areas health equity, health literacy, and ensuring that the patient voice was incorporated in clinical research. And so, fast forward to where we are today, we have over 120 partners that you know we come together with on a regular basis. I think there's been over 80 forums over the past seven years where we've come together and just had conversations. What's important to them? What are what are we working on? Um, what can we do better to help drive forward change, patient-centric innovations, right? And we've now evolved that platform under our umbrella of what we're calling now Patient Advocacy 360, our series of patient-centric initiatives where number one, we're working with the broader ecosystem of now these 120, 130 partners, but we also have insight forums that are helping to drive forward everything that we're doing within the organization is patient-focused, right? We're taking these real insights from early on in RD through commercialization. I actually just got off one of these insight forums in the breast cancer with the breast cancer community, um, about eight patients and six advocates. And they were giving us feedback on things that we are working on right now that can help make sure that we are on point, that we are gonna resonate with the community and that we're doing the right things to help people who are impacted by a cancer diagnosis. And then just our partnerships, the basic partnerships that we have with the advocacy community of how we're working together, how we're collaborating. We like to say collaborate to scale so that patients do get the right information at the right time from the trusted sources. So we're collaborating and scaling information through our advocacy partners, but also through the channels and the wide reach that our organization has, both through digital social channels, but also through the ground game, through our field colleagues, who I think they find that providers that they're working with, health systems, really do value these credible advocacy resources that can really help patients get navigate and get the care that they need, whether it be transportation or lodging or psychosocial support.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

So I really have to commend your organization on the willingness to continue to fight in health equity and health literacy. It's been an area that unfortunately a lot of organizations have stopped pursuing. But we know, and as you guys do as well, that those are the blockers primarily for most patients in A, understanding their diagnosis, or B getting the best care they possibly can for themselves. And it means a lot to hear that you guys are continuing to put up a fight there, but including that large number of organizations that have come together under that umbrella. I will say I don't think there's been a month or a quarter at least that have gone by that I haven't heard of your organization pulling groups together. And that's really what it means to do this work. What I want to ask you though is you said this before, which is understanding it and how to speak back to the business of the value of the work that you're doing, and that was both uh from a government and policy perspective, but also as you think about advocacy. I think it's a space that a lot of people still have difficulty with when they get into that advocacy function is how do I translate what a patient story means to the business? What advice would you give to others in thinking about having that conversation?

SPEAKER_01 11:54

I can tell you I've been part of our oncology advocacy team on the team and then leading the team close to 10 years. And there's not a day that goes by that I don't have for an internal conversation a deck open on my desktop that describes what our team does, right? Because it's a consistent education, it is speaking to the business too in language that they can understand. What are these patients bringing to the table? That um, what are these insights that are coming to us? How are they relevant to the business priorities, right? And so it's translating that. And I think, Matt, that's part of me being with the company for close to 30 years, having that business background and understanding what's important to the business is is really critical, right? It's managing these large accounts, these large organizations, understanding what's important to the organizations, aligning that with what's important to the business. And that's where we come together head on. But I will share with you um it's about the mutually beneficial partnership too.

SPEAKER_02 13:05

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

And I truly believe that if we're doing things for the right reason, the advocates see that, right? Um and I think certainly our leaders uh we're fortunately in a patient-focused business. And I think when we're consistently talking about what's important to the patient, what's we're delivering innovations for patients. And I think we've been able to also show through our insight forums that we have in oncology, we have actually 10 of them in different therapeutic areas now in different topics, like one in financial advocacy, one in precision medicine, where on a consistent basis, we're bringing together, like I just mentioned, the breast cancer committee, where we have set topics that the business knows now, RD knows now that they can come to us and they can get real insights that are going to be important to the work that they're doing so that we are really on point when we're moving initiatives forward, whether it's an RD, whether it's a clinical trial protocol, whether it's how we're thinking about medicine administration, whether we're thinking about a marketing campaign, right? What's going to resonate so that we can really be on point and drive forward meaningful work, meaningful progress for patients? And at the end of the day, it's about driving for us, driving forward those patient-centric innovations. So I think it's making sure we're on point with the advocacy community, understanding the business, bringing them together, but it's a consistent education. And that's part of what we're doing. And at times, you can tell I'm extremely passionate about this and passionate about the work that we do, but it is truly so important. If we are going to talk the talk, we need to walk the walk. And I think our advocacy partners, the advocacy community, the advocacy leaders that we work with really ground us in that. We also have a group that we call our patient-centric advisors. So these are advocacy leaders that we meet with on a bi-monthly basis. They're in the oncology space, but they really keep us grounded. And we'll go to them, we'll bring in maybe somebody within the organization that they're if they think their campaign is the best thing that since the things since the lights are good, right? We want to get, we want to give those folks feedback from people, advocates that are working with the vast majority of patients impacted by cancer and give give the hard feedback.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

And so that's what we're doing too. We have a lot of ways that we are really trying to make sure that we, in what we're doing as an organization and driving forward patient-centric breakthroughs, that we are incorporating what's going to be most meaningful to patients, what is most meaningful to the advocacy community.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

So Yeah, it's interesting you say that. I can't tell you the number of times. It always seems to be a marketing campaign, perhaps, as the crux of where advocacy really can help drive a conversation or at least reframe the mission and what we're trying to do. But with that in mind, what do you still find to be the most misunderstood or common misunderstanding of the advocacy function?

SPEAKER_01 16:24

Yeah, it's another good question. And um, you know, even when I talk to my husband, he's like, I'm not sure I really understand what you do. But advocacy isn't just a run-walk. It's not about funding an organization for a feel-good type of program or initiative. Um it's about, like I mentioned before, it's aligning on what's going to be meaningful to patients and to our organization. I'd like to say, I think a lot of times people see advocacy as very transactional and then it's all about us providing funding. There's definitely a place for that. There's definitely a place for fundraising, for galas, for runwalks to raise awareness. But it's more about these real partnerships. It's about sitting down at the table. To me, and I've always said this, we're fortunate in that we have so many subject matter experts at our organization that we can bring to the table with our partners. And that's almost in a lot of ways more valued. If you sit down with the right people and you're solutioning together, the funding then that may follow is going to benefit even be a larger portion of funding, right? So I guess in answer to your question, a lot of times people think advocacy is really about being transactional funding and run walk. But I truly see advocacy, and I think many who do this work see it as much more strategic and working together and bringing together the best minds so that we can make the most meaningful difference for patients, supporting them. And I think too, that's when I think about our advocacy ecosystem, right? It's this type of work that's driving forward the right initiatives that's ultimately gonna help patients that are facing barriers to best care.

SPEAKER_00 18:25

So yeah, I mean, as we think about healthcare, it's not as simple as some might think it is, right? With, well, the patient got a diagnosis and now they're gonna get a treatment. There are so many more levers and impact points along the way that hold back the diagnosis, that hold back a correct diagnosis, that hold them back from treatment, that that's where advocacy is really coming in to help tell that story. But as you know better than anyone else, when you know one patient, you know one patient. Right. Yeah. Right. And that's where I think we call it advocacy intelligence. That's where the true strategic value of advocacy can really help heft its weight is on that knowledge that you know is around the corner that others don't know.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

Right.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

Yeah, and I think it's it's a really good point. And also kind of going back to why I do what I do. I think I, like so many, probably everyone at this point in time, we know someone who has been someone close to us who's been impacted by cancer. And, you know, in 2013, my dad was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. He had had a long history of heart disease and never thought no one in my family ever had been diagnosed with cancer. My mom was a nurse for 50 years, earned her 50-year, you know, nursing certification. And, you know, um kudos to her, right? And I had you know was the resident health care expert in my family having been in the biopharma industry for many years. But, you know, when it happens to you, it's like, where's the navigator? I know there's nurse navigators out there, but you know, fortunately, unfortunately, he was diagnosed very late, but it was how can he get support? You know, he passed away four months post his diagnosis. Thank you. But it was like, here's my my mom who had been a nurse for 50 years. I knew enough about the healthcare system to be asking questions, but the resources, to your point, like they just weren't, they just weren't there. And that was back in 2013. The role of the navigator has definitely evolved since then. And I know there's there's more of them around to help support patients, but um it's a challenge. And at that point, it wasn't as much about accessing, you know, care. He had insurance, he had these things, but it's finding the resources that he needed. I'm like, you need to get a second opinion. No, he didn't need a second opinion. I'm like, Dad, you need to get a second opinion. It's it's about advocating for yourself too and knowing the right questions to ask.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

So and so many people we're doing a lot now. Um we've developed a couple of tools direct to patient to ensure that patients, as you said very early in this conversation, recognize that their voice matters as we try to tell patients your doctor doesn't know what you don't tell them. Right. And if we're if we walk in with a very paternalistic mindset of your provider, you you might be disappointed, or you might not get the the value of the care that you're seeking. And we we've launched uh what's called our empowered patient both app and tool that allow patients to both identify all of the disease state nonprofits that are out there for them so that they know where they can go, but then to arm them with their own insights and data so that they're able to track their own symptoms and side effects of both treatment and disease and be better prepared for that unfortunate seven minutes on average that we get with a clinician.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 21:56

It's as you said, you put yourself in those shoes as As the resident healthcare expert for your family, I just put myself back in for the the 18 years that I battled chronic pain of what was I doing for me and what would have made that easier or better, but for everyone else, what would have driven those numbers down than 18 years? Yeah. You know? Yeah. Um, and that's where we see a lot of the innovation from an organization like yours really coming into play. I'm not gonna lie, we have we know plenty of organizations that have heard what your teams are doing and say, you know what, we should do that. And I think that's a testament and a compliment to what your teams have done is that you're innovating, you're bringing the voice in, you're doing things that others haven't done. I guess the question becomes is how do you get that ability to do that within the space that you're working?

SPEAKER_01 22:50

Um so just to clarify, is your yeah, oh, to be innovative.

SPEAKER_02 22:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Um I think it's you know, we've had the ability, and we've we're, as I mentioned, we're continuing to do the education. Um, and fortunately it's consistent. We've been working in oncology advocacy within our organizations since 2010. Um, I think you know many of the people that, you know, started our function, and we work both on a patient side and a professional organization side. I think one of the keys too is that within our function, within oncology specifically, um there's not a lot of turnover within our group, right? So it's a it's fairly consistent. I know advocacy sits in so many different functions and different organizations. And we've had the ability and the, I guess, have been fortunate to have our advocacy functions sit within commercial. We're able to demonstrate alignment with the business. We consistently lead and manage these strategic relationships. And so I think the business does see the value. In fact, um, when I first started in this role in oncology advocacy, we sat it, we're, I don't want to say buried within another organization, but we moved around into different functions in commercial. And a few years ago, the patient voice was elevated to more of a leadership level. And so my boss sits on that commercial leadership team. And so it's much more visible. And the patient voice is, I think, uh has always been valued, but it's much more visible and seen. And we are being asked hard questions, right? We are being asked to show I hate to say metrics, but it's more about impact, right? The impact of the work that we're doing. So we're thinking things differently about how we show that impact. We know it's impactful in the work that we do, but we are able to now think a little bit differently, especially with technology and AI. I think it's easier to show that impact and demonstrate that impact of partnership, right? And not just about X number of views of a video, but it's what's the action a patient's going to take after they see that video or after they have access to a resource? What action are they taking to maybe go have another conversation with their provider versus just seeing something? How can we demonstrate that the patients are actioning on that? And it's helping them, empowering them, um, similar to what you just mentioned, empowering them to have that conversation and to advocate for themselves. Because we know that you know what you mentioned before too, providers are so busy, and it's up to patients and advocates to come to the table. But I guess going back to your original question, how do we have the opportunity to innovate? Fortunately, at our company, innovation in AI is talked about day in and day out, every call that you're on, right? And so it's thinking of thinking of things differently and how can we drive forward innovation? I mentioned our insight forums. One of the things that we started doing a couple years ago, and I think you mentioned this in the opening, was we were using an earlier version of an internally developed AI tool where we were able to quickly expedite access to the insights that we were getting from our forums to colleagues across the organization. So I was at a meeting last year, and companies were saying, and this was even last summer, I think you were at the same meeting. Well, we track our insights on spreadsheets and we're able to access them in that way. Well, we similarly a couple of years ago had all these insights and Teams folders and Word documents. Well, we said, hey, with AI moving forward, and again, looking at where our company has been going, um, we've had the fortunate ability to utilize AI early on and it's continuing to evolve. And we really see the value as being incorporated into everything that we're doing. We need to innovate, we need to think differently. And so we're consistently being challenged to do so. And if we're not, we're gonna be left behind. And so I think that's the fortunate place that we are right now and that we're being challenged to innovate. And when our leaders see that we're doing that, they want to work with us, they want to and see the value of the patient work that we're doing.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

Yeah. And and the ability that you have there in sharing those insights is unfortunate uh that it is so different than a lot of other teams. But I think that's where the value continues to get recognized in the work that you do is that those insights get shared far and wide. I'm working with some teams that insights from last ASCO are just getting out, right? And we just got done with ASCO this year. And how sad is that? We were able to sit down with folks, get their stories, but they didn't really get anywhere. And that's where I think with you that AI has the opportunity to help shift that. Um, I don't know about you. Do you have any fears with AI as you think about the advocacy space?

SPEAKER_01 28:25

Yeah, I mean, it's something that comes up all the time. And in fact, we were in a meeting at ASCO with ASCO leadership, right? I mean, one of the big things that came up from our leadership and ASCO leadership was patients getting access to credible information, right? And so, you know, are the chat GPTs of the world, I hate to call out anything, but are patients getting access to reliable information? And so we're thinking about uh how can we forge partnerships with credible, trusted organizations on the professional side and the patient side, how can we work together so the credible patient information is being matched and disseminated through these professional organizations using AI, right? So whether it's bringing in a digital technology partner or is it something that we as an organization with our digital team can help develop, right? So it's all about expediting to patients access to the right information, the right credible information at the right time so that patients can move it forward. Separately, we've one of the initiatives that formed out of our POPSI work has been focused on health equity. And one of my colleagues is actually leading that. It was a pilot that we launched in Texas a couple years ago through a bunch of community listening sessions. Bottom line, where we landed was patients were not getting access to the resources that they needed that were credible quickly at the right time. We were working with community health workers to say, what are you currently doing to help patients navigate to the right resources, whether it be funding or transportation or lodging. And what was happening was these community health workers were may find a resource, but you know what? There was no more funds left in that in that pot of money, right? So we actually worked with the vendor, this was two years ago, to develop uh a resource matching tool based on generative AI. And fast forward, we since have um through an RFP process, have another advocacy organization now owns this tool, and they're working to scale it more broadly. So again, we've been thinking for a couple of years, how can we solve this problem of patients getting access to credible information at the right time? And so we're working through these organizations, trying to bridge them together. We know the advocacy groups have credible information and the professional organizations, providers are wanting to get access to this information to get to patients. So that's kind of how we're thinking about it. I mean, certainly there's a fear, and I think the biggest fear is people get not getting access to credible information. So we're trying to think how we can forge these partnerships so we are convening the right groups so patients are getting access, moving forward some really cool innovative partnerships.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

Yeah. No, that's that's fantastic. I actually just uh was part of the American College of Osteopathic Family Physicians meeting where that was a lot of the same concern and focus, but in this case it was focused on vaccines and vaccine hesitancy, and how do we ensure that we get the right information out? Who are patients listening to? How do we get information into the hands of the professionals as well so that they feel comfortable having those same conversations? And exactly as you said, a lot of it was evaluating what's already there, and then how do we pull together instead of rebuilding uh something that is already available?

SPEAKER_01 32:02

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. The other just one other thing that I think about as it relates to advocacy and patients getting access to the right resources. Um, I feel like there's such a great opportunity. And I don't know if this is the right number, you may know, but roughly 30% or less of patients ever find an advocacy organization when they are diagnosed with some sort of a chronic condition, right? So in this day and age, how can we change that? Like to me, this is a big idea that we're trying to solve for, right? We know that in how we speak to the business, I presented this in our strategic plan to leadership. It's we know that if patients get access to affordability resources that they can get from an advocacy organization or psychosocial support, they're more likely to stay on, get access and stay on a medication, right? Um, and that's with any medication, not just a cancer medication. And so thinking about, we've worked with uh one advocacy organization and a health system on a pilot where there's an automatic trigger within an EHR that once a patient is diagnosed with blood cancer, they have an automatic referral unless they opt out to an advocacy organization. How can something like that be scaled, right? I mean, so those are the kinds of things, like from a technology AI standpoint, um, to like how can we bridge that gap so people are getting the information that they can really help them and quite honestly that they need and that they deserve.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

So could not agree more. In fact, I launched what's called the Advocate Bridge, um, advocatebridge.org about two months ago, which is exactly in that same vein. I did a TEDx talk on the power of patient advocacy in April of last year. It got about a little over a million views in seven months, and the common question was, how do I find one? And I couldn't let that stand. So I built Advocate Bridge, and what it's done is basically crawled the internet for all of the advocacy organizations are out there, put them in one spot, and then you put in your diagnosis, and it surfaces all of the disease state nonprofits, but also professional societies as well. If you're looking for a prof a medical professional, you have that, but then also independent patient advocates in your area if there isn't a navigator. And then, as you referenced, a lot of the dialogue was well, what about the financial resources? So patients can come, advocates themselves can come to that site and can uh utilize the financial tool uh to identify all of the different branded and non-branded product uh patient assistance programs as well. Because again, the mindset was how do we lower the number of clicks that a patient's got to take if they've already begun that search? And then tie that back, of course, SEO-wise with the YouTube video that was already out there to help drive folks to a one-stop shop to get the resources that they needed.

SPEAKER_01 35:09

That's awesome. I'll have to check that out.

SPEAKER_00 35:11

Please, please do. Honestly, you guys have done such amazing work, but the one thing I want to call out is the focus on professional societies. Because I would say that as the last two years have gone on in the industry, and let's call it what it is, it's been an uphill battle for a lot of advocacy functions as budgets have gotten tighter. We've seen a lot pull back from professional societies, and I I personally think that's a mistake. What value do you guys see in working with the professional societies to assist patients?

SPEAKER_01 35:42

Yeah, tremendous value. And again, it was not my vision. It was back in in 2010 when when my predecessor saw the need for creating this type of function in oncology because of the large number of not only advocacy organizations, but also professional organizations. And I guess I think quite simply about shared decision making. And it's about the patient and the provider at the end of the day, right? And bridging those two. And I think that from a patient advocacy standpoint, you can't fully understand that until you bridge that with a professional organization as well. Whether it be a pharmacist, whether it be an oncologist, whether it be a navigator, whether it be an advanced practitioner, there's so many key stakeholders in that multidisciplinary cancer care team that are instrumental to quite honestly, the success of a patient to live longer when prescribed, when faced with a cancer diagnosis and treated, right? And so I think it makes so much sense to have advocacy and professional organization, society management. And again, I know some companies have professional organizations managed medical. We have been just firm believers that from that maintenance of relationships over time, um, but truly bridging the advocacy and professional relations function makes so much sense to us. Sure. Um, and that we are at the table. And I think we see even from our advocacy ecosystem that I mentioned, um patient advocacy 360 ecosystem, we have patient organizations and professional organizations at the table, many of which, of whom probably would never have met each other. And so we're consistently connecting different organizations based on the work the patient organization's doing, can maybe work through the professional organization to amplify this great survey or report that you just released on access and affordability and what barriers patients are facing on utilization management. And so, I mean, we do that on a daily basis. It's that connectivity.

SPEAKER_02 37:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:59

Whereas if the functions are managed at different parts of the company or not managed at all, it in my opinion is a real miss because that it takes that connectivity, especially in oncology with the large number of organizations that are at the table to help patients truly navigate such a complex um diagnosis.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

Yeah, I could not agree more. And you know, as you coming back to that vein that you referenced there with shared decision making, I tell the general patient community and general public this all the time that the industry and your provider have the same desire, which is for you and your doctor to make the decision that's best for you and everyone else get out of the way. Right? And that's really what you're doing when you're bringing the professional society and the patient advocacy organizations together is allowing them to figure out what's best for the patient, to educate all the patients that are out there, and ensure that that relationship is one that's able to take place in the first place, but is a good one as well. I want to just take us back real quick because you had referenced, you know, you obviously weren't always in pharmaceutical space. What did you do coming out of college?

SPEAKER_01 39:05

Yeah, so it's very interesting. Um so I got my degree in accounting and I worked in public accounting and got my CPA. So I worked for one of the at the time it was the big six. Um and they they are still around but have a different name. They it was it's it's a bridge now. But so that's that's what I did. That was my first job out of college. I worked actually in audit, and I was consistently looking for what people were doing wrong in audit. And I'm like, this is not what I want to do for the rest of my life. But quite honestly, it was a great background. Um, I got a job right out of college, and I was in the business school, and had it, I was exposed to a lot of different industries. It was a cool job, um, but I knew it's not what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. So then I I actually worked for a large retailer and I audited health insurance plans that administered benefits. It was a large retailer for all of their divisions and they workers comp health insurance, looked at workers' comp claims. So I did that for for about a year. And then I sold accounting software. Um, and I kind of knew that I wanted to get my goal was to get into the um pharmaceutical industry. My brother actually worked for the company that I work for now at the time. He doesn't, he left a couple of years later. But um anyway, after the accounting software sales, I entered the industry in sales. So that's awesome. That was kind of my career journey. So within that short span of uh, let's see, I guess six years, I had four different jobs, and then I've been at the same company for 29 years.

SPEAKER_00 40:46

So uh we it's so funny to see how similar of backgrounds I had four jobs in the first four years after college uh as well, and and it was all healthcare related, but in different disciplines in healthcare, from pharma to biotech, market research, all things that ended up serving me. And ultimately, as I hear about the work that you were doing, you were learning the business side of it. And and honestly, I would say from an accounting perspective, how to speak to the business as well, um, which has probably served you really well in your current role to be able to bring it back to what matters to the business as a whole.

SPEAKER_01 41:24

Yeah, that's a great point. Great point. Yeah. So one other similarity that we have too is, and I think this is maybe the connectivity too with advocacy, is I played team sports my whole life. I played uh college soccer, and I think it's always thinking about um the contributions of the team. Certainly individual contributions are important, but um, it's really that team effort. Um, one of my favorite quotes is if you want to go fast, go alone, and if you want to go far, go together. And I truly think that when it comes to advocacy, like that's what it's all about. Um advocacy and teamwork. I see the real value of my team and of our broader patient solutions team. When we come together, the work that we can do truly to drive forward impactful um initiatives for patients. I mean, that's what it's all about. So in conjunction with our partners.

SPEAKER_00 42:17

So and it's truly second to none. One of the things that I did want to call out is as you think about that advocacy and engagement function, you had talked about a lot of the times there's such more value over the funding and just bringing some of the professionals that you have from your organization out to them or to bring those organizations in to learn from those professionals. We see that year after year after year in our research as far as what is of most value. And it's never the check, it's always the helping us to do our work better that we constantly see. So I commend you guys on that opportunity as well.

SPEAKER_01 42:56

Thank you. And I think one of the um really appreciate that. And again, it takes a village, the work that I couldn't do without my team, without our broader team, without the supportive leadership, and certainly without our partners. But for the past three years, and this will be the fourth year, I mentioned these patient steering committees that we have, our we're calling them insight for advocacy 360 insight forums now, as we're reframing under our patient advocacy 360. But um, we brought all the committees together in one live meeting. So for the past three years at one of our RD facilities last year, and we're gonna do the same this year at our headquarters the two years prior. And so at our RD facilities, I mean, we've had some of our scientists meet these patients virtually. Certainly they come into some of the virtual forums, but for them to be there and really just hear firsthand from the patients, get the insights firsthand. Um, our leaders, our senior leadership in oncology was at the table with us last year. At this meeting. And it's to your point of how do we get leadership buy-in, it's getting them at the table to see the impact and the value and what these patients and what their real voices are bringing. Because I think they get so busy, especially in the RD space, that, you know, they know it's important, but it's we've created that forum for them to be able to interact and get really great feedback and insight from these patients to help us do our job better and really deliver patient-centric innovation.

SPEAKER_00 44:35

So it's it's always a great thing to get that reminder from a patient as to what is so important, right? And I love that you're doing that in-house. We've been working with a couple of organizations to stop going off site, but to rather bring them to you, bring them to your locations. It's great for morale within the organization in the first place, but it also ensures that that disease state nonprofit, may they be a professional society or a patient advocacy, that they feel special. And there's no bigger impact on corporate reputation from our research than access to leadership. Right? So if they're at the table and they're engaged in the conversation, that's just going to do not just great things for the relationships that you have, but for the way that they look at your company as well.

SPEAKER_01 45:22

Absolutely. Like all around, it it's a it's a win-win. So appreciate it on all sides.

SPEAKER_00 45:28

So my last question for you, it's my same same question I ask everybody. If you could go back to that girl that graduated from college looking at accounting, and obviously you found your way into the industry and found your passion and advocacy, what would you go back and tell that 22-year-old if you could go and talk to her today?

SPEAKER_01 45:46

Yeah, well, I happen to have a 23-year-old daughter who is also in the industry, which is not the same company, but so I tend to give her a lot of advice and I think she would do some of it. But um, I actually have a few things that I would tell my myself. The first, and I think this goes back to your to one of your uh prior questions, was the career that you plan may not be the career that you end up, but every stepping stone along the way um is for a reason, and everything happens for a reason. And I think at the end of the day, and I'm seeing this now, that the culmination of my career today, it all really makes sense. And it's that where you start is may not where you end up, but it all happens for a reason. I think that's one thing. Um another is, you know, I think many of us, like it has to be the perfect time, like everything has to be right. Like take some risks as long as you can from a personal standpoint, manage it. And I think most of the time leaders, if you're, you know, if you want to move into a certain position, they are gonna recognize the importance of the work-life balance and whatever you may need. Um and so it's it may not always be the perfect time, but be willing to take the risk and advocate for what you need, um, whatever it might be. Um and I think one of one of the big things that I think is so important is just gratitude. Um at the end of the day, it really makes sure that if that you're thanking people, that um gratitude really I think keeps us grounded, especially when things get hard. I started a couple of years ago a gratitude journal. Um, and every morning I write in the journal, and it really sets the stage for the day and for everything that uh I do. And so just the importance of gratitude, and I think maybe it's because of the advocacy work that we do and we see the importance of every day and what it means somebody impacted by cancer or another chronic condition. But just the importance of gratitude is so meaningful to me. I mean, the list could go on and on. I have a lot of things, but I think those are the key ones. Um, I guess one last is is progress over perfection. And I think it goes back to it may not always be exactly the right time. Um, but sometimes letting go of the details that uh aren't as important. It's about moving things forward and prioritizing what's most important. We can't do everything, it's working as a team, um, but moving forward together.

SPEAKER_00 48:24

So that's fantastic advice for anyone that's listening from all backgrounds. So I really appreciate that. And I'm a big believer too, that everything happens for a reason. People always ask me, would you change those 18 years? No, I wouldn't because it's what got me here, it's what's given me the knowledge that it did to recognize the the voice of the patient and the value of it, um, having that been that patient that felt ignored, um, and to make sure that no one ever feels that way. So I could not agree with you more. Susan, it's been an absolute privilege. We'll ensure to break this up and clip it up for you so that you can share it with your uh your audience and give kudos to your team as they're rightfully do. Uh and I'm sure your daughter's ears are ringing as we speak. Well, thank you again.

SPEAKER_01 49:08

You know, thank you, Matt. I really appreciate the opportunity and again the platform that you've built to elevate the importance of of advocacy. Um, I think we all know it's the long game, and that uh we uh one of the other one of my other favorite sayings that I actually got from a very wise person was the day you need a friend isn't the day to make a friend, and that with advocacy we're in it for the long game.

SPEAKER_00 49:31

So yes. Yep. Could not agree more. Thank you so, so much for your time.

SPEAKER_01 49:36

Thank you.